--- Log opened Wed Nov 10 14:36:03 2010
Lastlog:
12:56 < inode0> you recall wrong
12:57 < sijis> oh. either way, when i think rhel i think server, not desktop. when i think fedora, i think desktop, not server
12:58 < nirik> 'server' 'workstation' in rhel world
12:58 < inode0> when I think fedora, I think server stuff of the future with a desktop I can be happy enough using
12:58 < mmcgrath> sijis: I've always thought of the RHEL desktop stuff as 'workstation'
12:58 < mmcgrath> nirik: yeah.
12:59 < sijis> i see desktop = workstation as the same
12:59 < sijis> sorta like WinXP/Windows 7
13:02 < sijis> i'm trying to think what does lower download numbers mean. it means that we aren't delivering something to folks
13:03 < sijis> is that jus a general non windows or mac trend?
13:06 < nirik> It's hard to say, but one thing it could be is people who used desktop/laptop/netbooks are moving to smart phones or web based stuff where they don't care what the os is. 
13:06  * inode0 has never been very interested in download numbers - we have a lot of users and I'm ok with them coming and going
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17:41 < smooge> frozen monkey won?
17:42 < jsmith> Yup.
17:44 < rbergeron> hrmmm
17:56 < stickster> FROZEN MONKEY POWER
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18:03 < jsmith> I wonder if it was symbolic that my son was reading an Orson Scott Card book while I was sending out that email...
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15:27  * nirik adds some questions to the election questionare. 
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18:03 < inode0> anyone here know off the top of their head a ballpark figure for the number of active packagers in Fedora?
18:04 < jsmith> Hmmmmn...
18:04 < jsmith> Finding the number of approved packagers should be somewhat easy
18:04 < jsmith> Finding the number of "active" packagers might be a bit more tricky
18:04 < inode0> doesn't matter
18:04  * inode0 can't define active really
18:05 < inode0> I've been thinking more about the idea discussed a while back on f-a-b about distributing shirts to contributors
18:05 < inode0> While I don't see any way to hit everyone at once
18:05 < inode0> If we can break things into more manageable groups maybe ...
18:07 < inode0> packagers seemed at least a fairly easy target audience but I don't really know if that group is wildly too large or not
18:11 < jsmith> inode0: If my count is right (which is always suspect), we have 1092 in the "packager" group
18:11 < jsmith> FAS group, that is
18:11 < inode0> ok, too large I'm afraid
18:12 < jsmith> inode0: How many of those are active depends on your definition of active.
18:12 < inode0> I don't think we could currently send out more than a few hundred per release
18:13 < inode0> 300 would be a challenge to our shipping manpower
18:14 < inode0> but if we did that for a number of releases we'd hit a lot of people
18:15 < jsmith> True -- and I'd be concerned that it would have a negative effect on the non-packagers that pour their hearts and souls into Fedora
18:15 < abadger1999> jsmith, inode0: For that parituclar one we might be able to do something with the logs on pkgs.fedoraproject.org
18:15 < jsmith> True -- and I'd be concerned that it would have a negative effect on the non-packagers that pour their hearts and souls into Fedora
18:14 < inode0> but if we did that for a number of releases we'd hit a lot of people
18:13 < inode0> 300 would be a challenge to our shipping manpower
18:16 < jsmith> inode0: I know :-)  I just wanted to make it clear for the logs
18:16 < inode0> there would be times we would send to the docs team and marketing team or something
18:17 < inode0> just need some way to chop things into smaller pieces
18:17 < inode0> could be a lottery
18:17 < jsmith> inode0: For better of worse, I've been reading Daniel Pink's new book called "Drive"
18:18 < jsmith> inode0: It's an interesting read, talking about intrinsic vs. extrinsic rewards
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18:28 < nirik> inode0: sponsors of packager is smaller... as is provenpackager. 
18:31  * inode0 could just send one to EvilBob and be done with it :)
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11:09 < mdomsch> elections foul-up extraordinare
11:09 < mdomsch> everyone has opinions on how it should work, no one stepping up to _do the work_
11:09 < jsmith> *sigh*
11:09 < mdomsch> myself included, as I've been travelling a lot this week
11:09 < mdomsch> s/week/month/
11:13  * jsmith was on the road three weeks in October :-(
11:13 < mdomsch> indeed
11:14 < jsmith> Anything else that folks want to put on the agenda for today's meeting, before I send out the invite?
11:15 < rdieter> jsmith: if we have time, to give some feedback on the cwg candidates
11:16 < rdieter> (I'd like to get them chosen asap honestly, and get moving...)
11:16 < jsmith> Sure, I had CWG on the agenda already, so we'll make time to talk about the candidates
11:16 < rdieter> cool
11:16 < jsmith> Anything else?
11:16 < jsmith> I'd like to get the meeting reminder sent out ASAP, since I forgot to do it over the weekend
11:18 < jsmith> mdomsch: You'll be out for today's meeting?
11:18 < mdomsch> jsmith: I'll be at today's meeting
11:18 < jsmith> Ah... great!
11:18  * jsmith just have messed up the times in his notes
11:18 < jsmith> Oh, I did mess it up
11:19 < jsmith> You were out last Monday... it's smooge who is out today
11:19 < jsmith> caillon is out today as well, it seems
11:20  * abadger1999 carefully keeps to the no opinions-no work category :-)
11:20 < mmcgrath> mdomsch: Fedora's very open.  Like a door.  It's just no one is going through it  :)
11:20 < mmcgrath> mdomsch: Fedora's very open.  Like a door.  It's just no one is going through it  :)
11:20  * abadger1999 carefully keeps to the no opinions-no work category :-)
11:33 < mmcgrath> yup yup
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13:32 < jsmith> jds2001, mdomsch, rdieter, spot: 30 minute warning :-)
13:32 < mdomsch> jsmith: thanks - enough time to grab lunch from downstairs :-)
13:33 < jsmith> mdomsch: Hmmmm... lunch!  What a concept!
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13:59 < jsmith> jds2001, mdomsch, rdieter, spot: Meeting time!
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14:03 < jsmith> ctyler-android: Meeting time :-)
14:03 < ctyler-android> smith: yep, on in a second
14:04 < jsmith> No rush
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13:22 < stickster> Does anyone know if there's a press roundup for articles on F14?  I don't see anything listed at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_14_press_archive after October.
13:26  * jsmith didn't know about the press archive
13:27 < stickster> jsmith: There have been a number of articles in the press about F14, and I think that likely most of them were linked on the marketing list. Either you or Kara may want to round all those up onto the press archive page.
13:27 < jsmith> stickster: Will do!
13:28 < stickster> jsmith: Can you get with her and figure out which of you will do it, and then let the Marketing list know about it
13:29 < jsmith> stickster: Will do!
13:29 < stickster> heh :-)
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13:56  * rbergeron hasnt kept up with it as of late
13:57  * rbergeron wishes there was a way to put it in a form and have it mail the list and auto-wiki-post
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13:58 < rbergeron> jsmith: i usually search for in-the-news in my folder, and then tag them with a star so i know they got added
13:58 < rbergeron> when i add them
13:59 < jsmith> rbergeron: Gotcha
13:59 < jsmith> I'll try to get some of those done this afternoon
14:07 < rbergeron> stickster: might be interesting if we could feed those in-the-news bits to insight somehow, too.
14:07 < stickster> rbergeron: Precisely
14:07  * rbergeron will mail logistics list about that thought
14:07 < stickster> Depending on licensing
14:07 < rbergeron> after i nom on arby's that is
14:07 < stickster> rbergeron: At worst we could grab their RSS' "excerpt" which I think would be fair use
14:08 < rbergeron> well, would a feed of links at bare minimum need to worry about that?
14:08 < rbergeron> yep, exactly
14:09 < rbergeron> link with article title i think would be a bare minimum nicety, which is basically all that the existing press archive does
14:08 < rbergeron> yep, exactly
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10:37 < mmcgrath> I love that "excellent" has become a 4 letter word in Fedora.
10:38 < jsmith> mmcgrath: you too, eh?
10:38 < mmcgrath> jsmith: excellent you!  :-P
10:39 < rbergeron> lol
10:41 < mmcgrath> rbergeron: go excellent yourse... ahh forget it :)
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10:47  * rbergeron excels at that
10:48 < abadger1999> haha
10:49 < rbergeron> steu!
10:49 < rbergeron> :)
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13:35  * mmcgrath notes our sqlninja decisions made it on to lwn - http://lwn.net/Articles/414438/
13:36 < mizmo> i kind of think being sarcastic isn't being excellent but whatever
13:37  * mizmo notes her email wasn't sarcastic
13:37 < mmcgrath> mizmo: I thougth your email was quite reasonable.  
13:37 < mmcgrath> if one is going to send a 'good bye' email, then they need to say goodbye.
13:37 < mmcgrath> and actually do it
13:38  * spot is still on the fence about sqlninja
13:38 < mmcgrath> spot: FWIW, my first thought about sqlninja was "I'd like to run this against our staging environment"
13:41 < mizmo> mmcgrath: right, i'm completely confused right now because he said he was leaving, then got mad when someone followed the appropriate process for removing him, and he still continues to email the list
13:41 < mizmo> talk about going down in flames
13:42 < jsmith> I can safely say that there' have been a number of missteps on both sides
13:44 < inode0> I suspect for a lot of people it just isn't easy to walk away from something you feel attached to
13:44 < mizmo> big difference between "i quit" and "i quit, and here's a great deal of trouble and crap for you to deal with have fun"
13:45 < mizmo> it's such a shame to see someone leave over hypothetical conspiracy theories
13:46 < spot> yes. hypothetical
13:46 < mizmo> omg! red hat is a *company*! 
13:46  * spot jumps in his black helicopter and flies away
13:46 < mizmo> why yes it is a company. where do you think the money to fund all those events and tshirts comes from?
13:46  * rbergeron hopes that fox mulder shows up soon
13:47 < mizmo> oh that's right, it comes from the 'greys'
13:47 < mmcgrath> mizmo: maybe we should start demanding the reverse.  The community pays for everything, but red hat gets to decide what to do with that money.
13:47  * mizmo starts stockpiling half-drank water glasses
13:47 < spot> /msg mizmo don't talk about the greys! if people find out about them, we're all in trouble
13:47 < mmcgrath> hehehe
13:47 < mizmo> oh wait thats a mel gibson movie reference, oh god
13:48 < mizmo> mmcgrath: seriously!
13:48 < mizmo> oh my god you're giving me money and empowering me to make decision on what to do with it how dare you!
13:48 < mizmo> are there other linux communities in such a horrible situation?
13:48 < mizmo> ubuntu surely must be better as locos are not funded by canonical at all
13:49 < mmcgrath> maybe mozilla?
13:49 < mmcgrath> I'm not a member of that community so I have no idea how that goes.
13:49 < mizmo> see there you go again. mozilla is also funded by the greys as they've supported crop circle efforts
13:49  * inode0 does not feel empowered by having influence over how money is spent - that is more of a burden to be honest
13:50 < mizmo> inode0: it's certainly a double-edged sword
13:50 < inode0> yeah, it is a good burden, but still it isn't all roses
13:51 < inode0> unless it was my money to begin with in which case I can just shrug off my bad choices
13:52 < mizmo> it's fairly awesome though to be able to express an interest in a specific area and have the opportunity to step up and own it if you want, no matter where you come from
13:53 < mizmo> to be able to have an idea and actually make it happen...
13:55 < inode0> when it works like that it really is awesome
13:56 < mizmo> it usually does though
14:20 < nirik> how many Board folks around/active right now? 
14:21  * rdieter waves
14:21 < nirik> fesco is talking about if they should allow the late nominations or not. 
14:21 < mmcgrath> bored?
14:21  * mmcgrath thinks that's a slippery slope.
14:21  * spot already chimed in.
14:21 < mmcgrath> but isn't a board member :)
14:21 < nirik> we voted and decided to extend nominations to the 13th. 
14:22 < nirik> but there is dessent and thoughts that we shouldn't decide this. (since 2 people voting are late nominees)
14:22 < mmcgrath> nirik: how did the votes look if they abstained?  which they probably should have.
14:23 < mmcgrath> if it still passed even without them, then it probably passed :)
14:23 < nirik> it was +5 / -1, or +3 / -1 if they abstained... 
14:23 < nirik> which would not have passed. 
14:23 < mmcgrath> why would +3 / -1 not pass?
14:24  * jsmith agrees that people who self-nominated late should probably abstain from voting -- just to avoid the appearance of evil
14:24 < nirik> well, it's not a majority vote... 
14:24 < nirik> 5 out of 9
14:24 < mmcgrath> if they abstained from voting, wouldn't they not be considered in the 'total' count?
14:25 < nirik> true. 
14:25 < nirik> so 3 of 7?
14:26 < mmcgrath> hm
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14:29 < mmcgrath> spevack: afternoon
14:29  * inode0 giggles
14:29  * nirik sighs. 
14:30 < mmcgrath> nirik: is this like instant replay?  how was the play on the field called?
14:30 < inode0> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-June/msg00013.html <--- how it was handled the first time I am aware of it happening for the record
14:31  * spevack always forgets about this channel and updates his irssi auto-join
14:31  * mmcgrath generally agrees with that decision.
14:31 < nirik> roughing the passer, -30yrds
14:31 < mmcgrath> deadlines aren't super complicated things
14:32 < inode0> when it happened and I was involved I just mentioned this issue to jds2001 who gave it some thought on his own and decided to withdraw
14:33 < spevack> is it too late to name F15 "Hindenberg"
14:34  * nirik plots a revised election policy. Wonder if I will have time to write one up. 
14:34 < rbergeron> we could extend the deadline ;)
14:34 < inode0> just throw out the rules
14:34 < spevack> I'm told I missed a fascinating conversation in this channel.  Can someone shoot me the logs?
14:35 < mmcgrath> spevack: what was it on?  I didn't think there was anything too ground breaking today
14:35  * mmcgrath gets a log just the same
14:35 < nirik> well, I was thinking: allow write in, kill range voting for something people grok, simplify/clean up the fesco specific ones that are left. 
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